EFFin’ Unsound

– posted by thehim 

The Federal Way Conservative has been getting feisty in his comment thread for the last post I ridiculed at his site.  For your Christmas reading enjoyment, below the fold is my (very long) break-down of his last comment:

How is saying this not treason? You are saying that we cannot win. How is that not helping the enemy?

We cannot “win” the war in Iraq. There is nothing we can do militarily to settle the civil war that’s started there between Shia and Sunni factions. Our “enemy” is not a single entity. We have a variety of “enemies” around the world. And the longer we stay stuck in Iraq, the more opportunities those enemies will have to hurt us, and the more enemies there will be.

Which universe are you living in? There is certainly no correlation between fact and what you just said. President Bush has bent over backwards to listen to his military, the experts, and his sec. defense.

Are you serious? Did you even see what happened in just the past week? General Casey, General Abizaid, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff all said that we shouldn’t put more troops in Iraq. A week later, Casey is now saying that he’d support having more troops, and Bush (who is supposedly bending over backwards to listen to them) is just ignoring the Joint Chiefs, Colin Powell, and all the other experts who know that a “surge” will be useless. This has been happening for years. Where have you been?

No, YOU are threatening our dominance because you refuse to support YOUR president.

But our President is threatening our dominance. Why should I be supporting a President that is making America weaker? You’re kindergarten equation for patriotism doesn’t quite work when we have a President who is failing at his job. Study some American history. Our founding fathers placed a lot of value on criticizing our leaders.

Let me reverse the question, the way it should have been asked: Do you believe that what is said here at home does not effect what’s happening in Iraq?

That’s correct. What’s said here has a minimal affect over what happens in Iraq. The average Iraqi is not watching CNN. The average Iraqi is more concerned about their basic needs, food, electricity, employment, education for their children, etc. They’re not too concerned with America’s political situation.

Just read any document or speech by any of the terrorists leaders. Note how they quote democratic party leaders exensively, and almost quote Michael Moore word-for-word.

Hahaha! Yeah, and they’re not quoting people on the religious right when they talk about the immorality of the west or about how American secularism is threatening their religion. Please, don’t make me laugh.

They are listening, and they know the war can’t be won in Iraq–it has to be won here first.

And you’re helping them win it. The terrorist strategy is to make it appear as if they are more powerful than they really are, in order to rally the support of their own countrymen. They are inconsequential in Iraq right now. Even the Sunni insurgents, who we are fighting primarily right now, hate the Al Qaeda folks and want them out. Yet when Al Zawahiri makes some silly comment in a videotape, you’re hiding under your bed screaming about how powerful they are. They’re not, but it helps them when you think they are. And when you start believing that the threat they pose is so great that we need to stop thinking rationally about how we interact with the world, YOU’RE PLAYING RIGHT INTO THEIR HANDS.

If President Bush is indeed helping Iran, I would love to know how because that would be very bad.

Well, let me explain. Iran is a Shiite country. Iraq, under Saddam, was a Sunni-led country that had a majority Shiite population. The two countries fought a war against each other in the 80s because the U.S. feared that Iran would eventually have too much influence over Iraq. So the Reagan Administration built up Saddam during the war so that that wouldn’t happen. Now that we’ve invaded and let them vote, they’ve voted in the kind of government that would have resulted had Iran won that war. Basically, they brought about the end that the Reagan Administration was fighting to avoid! Now, we’ve isolated ourselves from many of our allies, bogged down our army, and reinforced the stereotype of America as the Great Satan all at the same time! Hell, Iran endorsed President Bush in 2004. Doesn’t it bother you that the leaders of Iraq, who Bush said he has trust in, are also re-starting new ties with Tehran?

You’ve said that the war in Iraq is unwinnable. How could President Bush make us lose if we could never win in the first place?

There were stated objectives as we invaded Iraq. Depose Saddam Hussein’s regime, discover and destroy any Weapons of Mass Destruction, establish a democracy in Iraq, use the invasion as an example to keep other rogue regimes and terrorist groups in line, and to use oil revenue to pay for it. We did the first, discovered that there were no WMD’s and we’ve reached a point where the final three goals are impossible. It was theoretically possible to have achieved all of those goals, but it was obvious to anyone with even a passing knowledge of the Middle East that the way Bush approached this war doomed it to failure. He lied about Saddam’s links to Al Qaeda, he told key allies to take a hike, and he invaded with way too small a force. Oh, but I guess pointing all those things out would have been treason. OK, dude…

You remind me of the democrats. They came out and said “Hey, we can’t get military victory in Iraq–house to house fighting will cost too many lives.” Guess what? We did.

When? We haven’t achieved anything close to a definitive military victory over there. Every time we kill insurgents or invade a city, the problem just gets worse.

They said, “They’ll never hold successful elections.” They did.

No they didn’t. For an election to be successful, the government has to function afterwards. Showing up, dipping a finger in ink, and choosing the person who believes in the same religious teachings as you doesn’t mean anything when it just turns into a civil war between the particular political factions. Hell, they voted under Saddam and it was just as pointless then.

They said, “They’ll never agree to a constitution.” They did. Everything is impossible with you.

But the fact that they agreed to a constitution didn’t mean anything. They still have no justice system. Shia areas just implement their own sharia law. The Kurds are acting like an independent country. The Sunnis are overwhelmingly opposed to the central government and trying to overthrow it. Even Al-Sadr’s 60,000 troops are fighting against the status quo, which they fear is too secular. And hundreds of thousands of people are fleeing the country every month? How is that a success, by any measure?

I also ask you to look around. Terrorism worldwide is in retreat.

What!?! Are you kidding?

Al Qaeda is in shambles. The taliban is hiding in caves, unable to hold any ground.

Have you been in a coma for a few years?

Neither can any terrorist set up a base in Iraq without having that base found out and destroyed days later.

Al-Zarqawi operated freely in Iraq for years. They videotaped their training. What are you talking about?

In Lebanon, the anti-hezbollahs turned out en masse to protest hezbollah.

Hezbollah just had a massive rally against the government after one of the main Christian politicians in the country was killed. Hezbollah is stronger today than it’s ever been, by far.

The upper middle east, who had thought that they would have to cowtow to the terrorist tinpot dictators to the south, have become powerful allies with the US.

The Upper Middle East? What are you talking about? Being allies with the U.S. has become radioactive. Even Mubarak openly questions our leadership now.

As far as I can tell, the effect President Bush’s foreign policy has had has been tremendously good. Yes, nothing is perfect. Yes, things are still bad and people are still dying. But now there is hope where there was no hope before.

You’ve been tremendously fooled if you believe that. The Middle East is standing at the brink of a regional war only 4.5 years after the Saudis had put together a plan for the countries in the region to finally start recognizing Israel’s right to exist. Since then, we’ve gone backwards. Iraq has gone from bad to much, much, worse. The hopes of the Lebanese have been dashed. The Turks have been on war footing as soon as it became clear the Iraqi Kurds were able to be autonomous. Iran has taken a sharp to the right politically and just hosted a conference questioning the Holocaust. Hope? Are you kidding me?

Now there is peace where there was once war. Now there are democratic governments where dictators ruled with terror.

Where? Where in the Middle East is there peace where there was once war? Just name one place? Iraq? No, there was actually peace there and now there’s war. Afghanistan? Same thing, although that’s the only place where you could even try to make the claim that there’s now a democratic government. Where is this magical place where war was extinguished and is now peaceful? Every part of the Middle East has become more inflamed over the past few years.

Islated us from terrorist tinpot dictators and from their supporters like France, Germany, and Russia.

Well, guess what? World diplomacy is hard. Sometimes you can’t isolate yourself from the tinpot dictators. That’s reality, and it takes responsibility to face up to that reality. France and Germany are our allies. They are strong allies, and telling them to take a hike was a huge mistake as we set about trying to fix the problem of terrorism in the Middle East, just because they were absolutely right about how big of a mistake it would be to invade Iraq at that time. Now, we’re in a situation where we have no choice by to talk to the bad leaders in both Syria and Iran (and the bad leaders we already talk to in Saudi Arabia). We can continue to act like a 5-year-old on the world scene and ignore the people we think are big meanies, or we can start acting like grownups and dealing with the world as it is.

And made us look dangerous to terrorist supporting dictators like Iran, Syria, and North Korea.

Actually, Bush has done the opposite. We already did look dangerous to them, and it was a great deterrant for years. But now that our army is stuck in Iraq, we don’t look so dangerous any more. Invading Iraq was supposed to send a message. Unfortunately, it sent the wrong message.

I want to be separated from evil and I want to appear as dangerous as possible to anyone who dare threaten my right to worship however I see fit.

So you want to be separated from the people who threaten your right to worship however you see fit? So then I assume you’re a big supporter of the ACLU then, because that’s one of their main functions, to uphold the First Amendment. Second, you’ll never be separated from “evil”. Human beings will always do bad things, and there will always be people who go crazy and harm others. That’s what terrorism is. You, and too many other Americans, see the prevalence of terrorism in the Middle East and start trying to label who societies as “evil”. But terrorism happens in the U.S. and other countries just the same. Timothy McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, Ted Kazcynski. A guy in Iowa tried to drive a car bomb into an abortion clinic last year. As long as you’re alive, you will never be separated from evil. But if we keep believing that evil belongs to a certain part of the world geography, we will continue to make the problems in the world worse.

Let anyone who imagine they can impose their religion by the sword on me fear me even more than they fear their god!

Yeah, I’m sure they fear you, sitting at your keyboard attacking people who call President Bush names. You’re a terrifying sight.

Everyone has always envied America after World War II, even before we started mopping up the Taliban in Afghanistan and Al Qaeda in Iraq. We are envied because we are successful.

No, we are not envied, we are admired. And we are admired because we stand for liberty and justice, not just because we win wars. The allied victory in World War II in Europe was a victory for justice, against a man who convinced his countrymen that his country was being undermined by the press, by minorities, and by pacifism. Since then, people have looked up to America as the force to uphold liberty, civil rights, and religious freedom. Now, we’ve begun to believe that we are only admired because we are powerful, and we’ve forgotten about how we should be caring about liberty, civil rights, and religious freedom. If just winning wars was what it took to make people respect your authority, then the Nazis would have never lost.

My goal in life is not to be popular or liked. I simply want to live my life the way I believe it should be lived and in peace.

But you’ll advocate that others fight wars for that? And then accuse anyone who questions those rationales of treason and demand they be killed? That’s awful nice of you, to demand that others fight wars in order for you to feel like you live in peace and then refuse to bear any scrutiny. That might be the most cowardly thing I’ve heard in my life.

I love how you state that President Bush has gone back on the principles of individual liberty. Yes, he has. Finally, we are returning the US to be the great protector of individual liberties at home and abroad, rather than the weak facilitator that we were under Clinton and Carter!

What!?!? The President just signed a bill making it possible for people to be detained indefinitely solely if the Pentagon declares them an unlawful enemy combatant!! He tossed the right of habeus corpus into the trash can. You can’t possibly be less of a protector of individual liberty than that. That’s as bad as the Soviet Union, or Saddam, or any of the other tyrants who did not have any respect for individual liberty. You can’t just lock someone up anywhere in the world and say, “This guy is a prisoner of war”. That goes squarely against every principle that the world’s respect for America is based on.

I love our return to uncompromise on individual liberties.

My god, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Do you even understand what the term individual liberties means? It means that individuals (ALL individuals) have certain rights that no one, not even President Bush, has a right to violate. To say that by allowing President Bush to lock people up at solely his discretion and deny them due process that he’s doing more to uphold individual liberties may be the stupidest thing a human being could possibly believe. That may be the Holy Grail of human idiocy.

Exactly. I have laid out how undermining the president who is running our wars (not the country–that’s not his job. Look it up in the constitution) weakens our country and emboldens our enemy. If you are a real patriot, you would do what you can to make our country stronger and more secure, not undermine its military.

If you were a real patriot, you’d actually care about the principles this country was founded upon.

This entry was posted on Monday, December 25th, 2006 at 10:03 am and is filed under TheHim. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.